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Balancing the Nidhoggur and Thanatos

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Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.06 00:15:00 - [1] Originally by: Samurai XII If anything Thanatos and Nid are better carriers. What matters in a carrier: Being able to rep others with armor and shield. It's true that the Chimera and Archon have better tanks, BUT, a Chimera cap regen sucks so much it will just die as soon its out of cap. And the archon is more or less in the same boat. Oh and you can't even fit the Chimera properly thanks to the amount of CPU need from capital shield modules. :( Firstly the nids bonus does not work out as better than a res bonus since if you have those extra res the benifit both from local and remote repping while the remote repping bonus only boost one plus you wont have an all nid gang which means the nids suffer even more. Best carrier is the archon then the chimera. As for the CPU on the chimera as stated again and again you have more CPU now than the HEL the minmatar mothership yet the HEL has the same number of mid slots 1 more low AND 1 more high. The nid again is meant to be a shield tanker or was how it will be after the patch i dont know and it has 125 less cpu than the chimera thats 1 less midslot (on TQ) and yet about 2-3 midslots worth of CPU comparitatively you really have nothing to moan about with regards to CPU. The Shield boost ammount bonus and rep ammount bonus that the op is im assuming suggesting would be intresting but would have little effect in a spider tank personally im happy with the nids bonus just about however I am of his veiwpoint that the minnie carrier should be restored to it previous slot layout and given a sizable boost to CPU (100 as suggested would be about right since thats 25 less than the chimera and thats about the diffrence in cpu needs between a shield mod and a PDU II). Some increase in tanking would be nice because the slot layout now favours the carriers with resistance bonuses (if they had either the bonuses or slot layouts switched it would be very balanced but not going to happen). so in conclusion /signed with regards to nid 100 cpu 5/6/5 slot layout
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.06 00:31:00 - [2] Edited by: Random Womble on 06/11/2007 00:31:48 Originally by: Takita Yukida the funny thing is: the nid got the +1 lowslot, the hel didn't Hel is meant to be shield tanked as is the nid really, all the motherships gain one tanking slot over there carrier counterparts, wyvern gets 8 mids aeon 8 lows nyx 7 lows and the hel 7 mids except now thanks to ccps change the hel tanks shield and the nid will tank armor forcing you to train a new set of tanking skills if you want to upgrade from carrier to MS if minmatar hmm clearly that makes sense. Hel still seriously needs a CPU boost too as mentioned above it has less than a chimera either that or a switch to 7 lows 5 mids and im not sure the hel pilots on TQ would be too happy with that.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.06 13:17:00 - [3] Originally by: Naviset I can't believe this topic even exists tbh. The best part about carriers is remote repping and theres not THAT many situations where you're gonna have 10 carriers all remote repping another carrier and that one dearly hanging on for life... Has anyone tried fitting a Chimera? Even AFTER the cpu boost GL getting multiple remotes on it (Which works with the than/nid) I say give the nid an extra low and one less mid and call it good. And give the Chim some more CPU. 3 things for you to do 1 get a fitting program and try and fit a shield tank + everthing else on a nid 2 get a fitting prog and try and fit a shield tank + everthing else on a hel 3 stfu about the cpu issues of the chimera now that you can clearly see they dont even come close to those of the nid/hel
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.06 14:42:00 - [4] Originally by: Amy Wang Edited by: Amy Wang on 06/11/2007 14:16:03 A CPU increase wont do much, shield tanking the Nid is still not viable unless you plan on using triage all the time as after fitting the mandatory 2 sensor boosters (without them a single celestis/arazu/lachesis can knock your out of the fight and before you argue that one is enough now, try it yourself against a decent skilled damp ship) you only have 4 med slots left, hardly enough for a working shield tank. Maybe the damp nerf will change the requirement to 1 sensor booster but thats far from certain. For that reason I am quite happy with the Nid getting steered more to armor tanking with the 6 lows and I hope they keep that, the only way to make shield tanking the Nid viable would be to give it 7 meds AND some sort of tanking bonus and a CPU boost obviously, any shield tank below the Chimeras abilities is not worthwhile imho. After the patch a signal boost amp will be almost as good as a sensorbooster, i admit it wont have the options scrips will give you but on a basic level.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.06 15:02:00 - [5] Originally by: Afturmath Originally by: Reatu Krentor I don't see a reason to change to nid to capital armor tank when there already is another minmatar capital ship that has armor tank, fullfilling the "standard minmatar practice". I'm of course referring to the Naglfar. I did think about the Naglfar, but the training difference between it and carriers sort of separates the distinct training paths, whereas the bs/bc/carrier type-variants are all separate tank types. Originally by: Reatu Krentor You do know the fighter control change was reverted? They are not changing the carriers at this time. (ps. except for this odd nidhoggur change that doesn't even address the actual nidhoggur issue) Yeah, but they will be changing it eventually. If not this patch, the nerf is still a lingering threat. Originally by: Reatu Krentor Problem with the logistics strength of the Nidhoggur and Hel is that a pack of Chimeras/Wyverns or Archons/Aeons is better logistics wise because the resist bonus effectively boosts any tanking they do among eachother, by more then the current logistics bonus of the nid/hel at the moment. Yes, but they are also trying to boost the usefulness of carriers in providing repping to support as well. The triage module is a distinct tactical advantage when supporting that 100+ BS fleet, and the Nidhoggur/Hel will always have a nice advantage for that role. There's always the option to use triage Nidhoggurs/Hels to rep the Archon/Aeon/Chimera/Wyvern fleet as well, providing a further advantage over the exclusive Caldari/Amarr fleet. No one uses triage though because it sucks your much better off with spider repping between a group of carriers/MS ok so it quadruple the ammount of damage your own tank can rep however it also doubles the cap usage which means you cant leave your tank perma running if you do get attacked more likely you will be able to run it 50% of the time only doubling your tank, it also doubles the huge cap consumption of remote reps if you do even get to use them and 1 remote rep uses alot of cap as it is effectively 2 remote reps worth of cap is not sustainable either. As for the BC and BSs tanks each does a diffrent job while the MS and carriers do the same jobs if you want to look at it in that sort of way we can go frig -> cruiser -> BS where the rifter is pretty much a smaller ruppy and ruppy smaller tempest all those 3 ships can do both arm and shield tanks best at armor tanking though all 3 are gun boats (you dont HAVE to train missiles for them).
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.10 18:22:00 - [6] Originally by: Victor Ivanov Originally by: Random Womble Edited by: Random Womble on 06/11/2007 00:31:48 Originally by: Takita Yukida the funny thing is: the nid got the +1 lowslot, the hel didn't Hel is meant to be shield tanked as is the nid really, all the motherships gain one tanking slot over there carrier counterparts, wyvern gets 8 mids aeon 8 lows nyx 7 lows and the hel 7 mids except now thanks to ccps change the hel tanks shield and the nid will tank armor forcing you to train a new set of tanking skills if you want to upgrade from carrier to MS if minmatar hmm clearly that makes sense. Hel still seriously needs a CPU boost too as mentioned above it has less than a chimera either that or a switch to 7 lows 5 mids and im not sure the hel pilots on TQ would be too happy with that. Minmatar called. They want you to hand in your genitals. You are no longer worthy of breeding and spawning new members of our tribes. From a roleplay perspective and game mechanics, it fits. And I love it. We ARE the MOST skill intensive race to play. You should know that by now. Shields, drones, missiles, armor, projectile, ew, speed. For the Hel to be a dedicated Shield Tanker and the Nidhoggur a dedicated Armor tanker, it works. It fits our race. Sure, it may suck for those who want to fly the Hel, but damnit: You better have good skills to begin with if you wish to fly a mothership. Tactical Shield Manipulation V is not really a big deal. The thanatos is the most used and generally seen as the best carrier. Leave it as it is. Same slot layout means nothing, there are plenty of cruisers who have the exact same slots but are not nearly similiar due to thier roles and bonuses. We have a spectrum that is saturated in the entire eve universe. Amarr -------> Heavy armor tanker Caldari ------> Heavy Shield tanker Are both the extreme ends of the tanking spectrum. Gallente and Minmatar are somewhat in between, with Minmatar being the odd one out because it's not really heavy anything. Gallente is geared towards armor tanking, but not as much as Amarr. In conclusion: The change is a brilliant one. Don't change it. It fits the Minmatar philosophy, gameplay aspects and the Thanatos is fine. How you can think that the thanny is the best carrier is beyond me.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.11 03:33:00 - [7] TBH one of the intial reasons there are so many thanny pilots is becauase carriers are drone boats and so instantly the thanny suited many older gallente while other races have had to train up alot especially the caldari. I admit that now other races are catching up but even now a large proportion of carrier pilots for other races are alts specifically trained for carriers. I personally know several people that chose to train for the chimera from the start, a few people that have trained the thanny and regretted it and no one that wants to train the nid unless they are allready minmatar.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.11 16:51:00 - [8] Originally by: Xeliya Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Stuff If you want a tanking bonus to the Thanny and Niddy why don't we just make 1 type of Carrier, while we are at it 1 type of Battleship, and every other ship in the game. Changing the slot layout on the nid is allready a step in the 1 type of carrier direction.

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